'Natasha knows better': the wife of Mikhail Zhvanetsky - about a brilliant husband and love 30 years long
'10.11.2020'
Source: TUT.BY
“You have to choose the cheerful ones from the wives. From funny - smart. From smart - gentle. Of the tender - the faithful. And patient. And patient! " ("Who to be with")
With the author of these lines, the voice of several generations, Mikhail Mikhailovich Zhvanetsky and his wife Natalya, cheerful, smart, gentle, loyal and patient (the quote does not lie), Polina Kuzmitskaya from TUT.BY I met in Minsk two years ago. There they spent several hours waiting for a flight to Odessa.
As Mikhail Mikhailovich said in an interview with Vladimir Pozner: “This is a man sitting and asking questions: 'What is power?', 'What about freedom now?' A woman would never ask about that. Never!". The women in our meeting took a quantitative advantage, and therefore the main topic of conversation was love, the eternal relationship of the master and the muse, the long history of the teacher and student, who over the years managed to switch roles several times.
How not to become a shadow when you follow the genius of your time? How not to disappear behind him if you always cover the rear? How to remain the main man in the life of a man from whom “all women in the country want children” for decades?
We talked about this with Natalya, but in order not to immediately succumb to female solidarity, we began the conversation with a question to Mikhail Mikhailovich:
- Mikhail Mikhailovich, remember this quote: “A talented person is too inconvenient for everyone and good for everyone. It should not be taken in large doses. A difficult character is caused by reasons that are inconvenient for multiple explanations ”? Tell me honestly: do you have a difficult character?
- I do not have a difficult character, no ... Building everyone around is what a "hard character" is. And I do not belong to those who are building, but to those who are being built. Therefore, my character - I understand myself - is good! (Smiles.)
And people feel that he is good. Because something comes from a good person ... Something like kindness.
A good person very accurately feels what is happening with his counterpart. And where does this desire to put yourself in someone else's place come from? Also - from kindness.
- Natalya, what can you say about the character of Mikhail Mikhailovich?
- Misha, well, of course, I won't answer with you. (Laughs.)
Michael:
- You see, Natasha is a completely independent and independent being. That's why we got together - I need such a person.
Natalia:
- Well, at first I needed a man like Misha ... And he showed us where to go.
Michael:
- And now Natasha makes decisions.
Natalia:
- Wait in the wings! (Laughs.) Who has asked about my decision before?
Michael:
- And he did the right thing! (They laugh.)
Natalia:
- And I do not argue. We were in different weight and age categories. When Misha says that now I make decisions, he means everyday things: I work as a translator between him and life. We go to friends, doctors, bosses - Misha speaks, and I translate what he wanted to say.
Michael:
- Yes, my doctor, an excellent cardiologist Professor Syrkin, says so: “Misha, send Natasha to me! Don't come alone! " Because Natasha knows better how I feel. Surprising! .. But it is.
Natalia:
- And the recommendations that the doctor gives, I remember and then translate into Misha's language so that we do not panic.
Michael:
- She treats me perfectly! Itself! And I always feel better ... Natasha, will I go?
Natalia:
- Misha, go, but take tea and cheesecakes with you - ask the girls, they will warm you up.
- I'll take it, Natasha ... Here is the commander! - Mikhail Mikhailovich makes this remark with obvious adoration and, taking tea, goes to rest. And we continue:
- Natalia, now tell us the truth: I can't believe that there are no difficulties in life with a genius.
- Of course there is. Returning to the beginning of the conversation: Misha has not only a difficult character - he just always lives in his thoughts.
And through these thoughts it is necessary to reach out. To say something several times, to look into his eyes, to make sure: yes, I seem to have heard, accepted, understood ...
And all the same: the fact that we are leaving tomorrow is always a surprise to him. “How are we leaving? How is tomorrow? Oh my God!". It's like we haven't talked about this every day for the past month. (Laughs.)
It is pointless to make lists, mark dates, remind you of household chores. You have to understand this and be patient. How patient he is with all of us. (Smiles.)
Because we have to run somewhere all the time. And a person cannot run if he thinks all the time. From this, everything in our life happens as if in a little slow motion. (Smiles.)
On the subject: 'And death is just a break': satirist Mikhail Zhvanetsky died
- I wonder what the place looks like where Mikhail Mikhailovich thinks and writes best?
- Misha's office resembles an endless table, completely heaped up with papers, pens, telephones and books mixed ... All this goes into a large bed - another work place for Misha. From the table to the bed, from the bed to the table.
I could not live in this: madness and chaos, nothing to find. And Misha works here, and therefore nothing should be touched - everything should remain in its place, understandable to him.
With my current experience, I would build the office in a different way: it would be a huge room, where a huge number of tables with chairs attached to them are standing behind each other like a train. So that Misha, when all the paper on one table is covered, immediately goes to another, without looking up from work.
And all this without shelves, drawers, racks - as life has shown, we do not need them, "because everything is incomprehensible in them and nothing can be found." There should be one solid table surface familiar to the master.
In the center of this row of tables, there would be a large bed and several televisions around it. It's a pity that at first I did not know how the writer's life was organized - I thought, well, what is there - a beautiful folder with a straight pile of paper. (Smiles.)
- You said that at first Mikhail Mikhailovich determined the rules by which you lived ... Was there no fear of not jumping to the bar that he set?
- I was 24 - and I did not feel any bar, because I did not understand what it should be. I didn't understand anything at all. It seems to me that now, at 52, I would not dare to do that.
And at 24 it was easy, interesting, fun ... They took you with them everywhere, like a beautiful spaniel mad with happiness. And what kind of people have you met in these companies - my God! - the best in painting, literature, politics ... Okudzhava, Yeltsin - those whom I saw earlier only on TV. Full delight! And this delight overshadowed all difficulties.
And also - these were the 90s - our trips abroad began: to another world, which also opened up to me thanks to Misha. We came to interesting people, went into some amazing, as it seemed to me then, shops, and I could even buy something ... Although it was so unimportant!
What was important? Bring for your own a bottle of Pepsi-Cola or beer, some kind of napkin from a local cafe - any little thing “from there”. It was all so interesting ...
But the main thing: the environment in which I found myself. When you start communicating with Mikhail Mikhailovich, you find yourself in a company where everyone is older than you. And even those who do not have Misha's wisdom, compared to you, twenty-four years old, are still very smart. (Smiles.)
Opening my mouth, I watched all this and, unfortunately, over time I realized that I can no longer communicate with male peers.
- It was impossible not to compare everyone with Zhvanetsky?
- Absolutely! There were many gentlemen ... But as soon as they started to speak, I really wanted to quickly shut their mouths. After Mikhail Mikhailovich it was ... so awful!
And for three or four years I did not communicate with my peers at all - it was as if I had been deleted from my own life. It was some kind of illness: I could only think about Misha, talk with my friends only about Misha, wait only for his calls ... And we talked for 5-6 hours on the phone, the receiver was hot, it was uncomfortable to sit, everything was numb ... conversations broke and chairs were repaired, guests came and went, the day ended and began - and I was on the phone.
What we were talking about? I cant remember. I only remember that it was impossible to hang up.
- And what helps to talk with each other for 28 years and not get tired of this long dialogue?
- It seems to me that fatigue, routine, everyday life is delayed when a person by himself, outside of relationships, lives an uninteresting life.
And we are always busy: there is no time for everyday quarrels, boredom, depression. True, when I hear that someone is in depression, I think: Lord, I might have gone to bed too, but when ?! There was absolutely no time: one book is over, now another will begin!
We again have a pile of papers that need to be taken apart - I'm helping to proofread texts for new books. And in parallel with this, there is another job, also related to Misha: you need to print something, call someone, post some of Misha's texts on Facebook, go somewhere with him ...
It's easier for a man to get ready for a party: he got up, combed his hair, took a shower - and went to himself, handsome. And for a woman, it’s not that a new dress, shoes and a hairstyle are absolutely necessary ... But otherwise there’s no mood! You need to get out of your home clothes and climb on some heels to feel: yes, this is a holiday!
By the way, and after that I also want to read a book in the evening.
- What do you read at home, besides Mikhail Mikhailovich?
- We read everything except Misha in secret! Admire - do not admire! (Laughs.)
And why? Because he still cannot forgive me that in my youth I confessed to him a strong love for two writers - Darrell and Hemingway.
About the latter, I said something like: “God, what a writer! How could he feel it, how did he find these dialogues? " Those my enthusiasm, expressed out of inexperience 20 years ago, have not been forgotten to this day.
- And you can admire his favorite writers - Salinger and Chekhov?
- You can, but be careful. I admire them quietly - rather, I even agree. Misha says, and I add: “Yes, of course! Highly! Perfectly!".
I try once again not to reread Chekhov and Salinger, so as not to fall, God forbid, into the euphoria of delight! Because if you quote someone “not Misha” ... No, nothing will happen, but he will feel sad. Misha needs to be praised only for him, so that the conversation goes only about him. He doesn't force anyone ... But then he feels good! We have this cult of man, yes. (Smiles.)
- And you can tell him after hearing a new monologue: "Misha, this time something is wrong." How does he generally perceive criticism?
- Well, you won't be able to keep silent, because when Misha reads, he expects a reaction ... And you must give your resume. Critical, of course, is undesirable to say, but you can neatly note: "It seems to me that people will not understand." Or, if the concert was not very successful - either the audience, or the weather failed - you can also say about this.
Misha is offended, Misha does not agree, but I know - he hears me. Because you can't be a complimentary woman all your life!
Any insincerity in a relationship is felt and generates something more ... First there is a pause, and then alienation appears. And this line cannot be crossed, because it is the hardest thing to restore trust. Probably, this is also possible - but you have to go through great torment, through serious internal costs.
It was in our youth that we broke apart from each other, experienced serious emotional breakdowns, ran somewhere, looked for something ... What was it, maybe a search for new feelings for each other?
Now we are no longer looking for feelings, but we are protecting. At least physically incapable of such emotional stress. Try now to drink, cry and pull your hair all night - it's hard! (Laughs.)
- And there were crises in your relationship with Mikhail Mikhailovich?
- It happened in the first seven years ... Of course, at first everything is fine, because it is new: before Misha, I had never lived with a man and together with him entered a new phase of my life. I remember that buying a saucepan was a fun game for me! (Smiles.)
I went through everything for the first time: for two or three years I mastered new major professions. For several years I learned to be a cook, then a mother, then a gardener, then a hostess who gathers family friends in her house ... All this is terribly interesting, so at first you don’t understand that you are living with an adult who has settled in his principles and habits. And you yourself do not yet have a formed character, you are stormy - and you begin to try to cross the borders with at least one paw, trying to understand where the borderline is for you.
Probably the most difficult period for me was the period when our son was born. Because at first Misha did not want to admit that the child must be taken into account - to adapt to him and build the life of the family in a different way. And it turned out like this: the son is small, the mother is nursing, but you have to go to a party - and look good, and think something with your pregnant brains, and talk to people not only about the child. It was hard: when you spend all day kisses with a child, you move to such a ... kindergarten level of interests. It was difficult - and in the first three years after the birth of a child, I tried to keep quiet in general companies.
- How did you manage to become, as Mikhail Mikhailovich himself remarked, “an absolutely independent and independent being”?
- It's all about the attitude to life. You can endlessly reflect and feel dependent on a man who is older, more experienced, smarter. Or you can just be grateful that life has given you such a teacher.
Misha, in fact, gave me a new profession (Natalya is a hydrologist by education. - Editor's note): I have become a professional editor, literary critic, secretary, manager ... Today, wherever life has thrown, I will find a job for myself!
Yes, Misha himself is a big school for me. He is a difficult person, but kind, fair, infinitely decent - and you never get bored with him.
Do you remember how he said: "Humor and tenderness give rise to depth"? This is about him.
There is a lot of tenderness in Misha: he treats small children very touchingly ... And about animals he says: "I love them to tears." And this not only applies to our cat Maurice, although he is, of course, in a special position, but also to dogs, horses, hedgehogs - he can watch them for hours ... And he is also interested in the name of certain birds and flowers ... And trying to remember. (Smiles.)
On the subject: 'Hand on his shoulder': Natalya Zhvanetskaya about life, family and beloved man
- Is Mikhail Mikhailovich a vulnerable person with such a keen perception of life?
- Yes, he is always in some doubts and torments. How to support him in this state? You need to sit next to me, cry, get drunk, suffer together. It used to take more time because we were physically stronger, now everything is faster and easier. (Smiles.)
I remember when such a swing happened to Misha for the first time, I completely went into this peak with him: "I am a complete mediocrity, I am done with writing, I am leaving art." All night - talking about the fact that life is over, and in the morning I wake up - and I see: Misha has already got up, clear, smiling, humming something to himself. The storm is over ...
But, I know, he is still in these thoughts: "A writer is not a writer, an artist is not an artist, a satirist is not a satirist" ... He is constantly asked such questions. But, apparently, it gives him that adrenaline, which helps to go out in public again and again.
- And the recognition, this huge love of people charges him? Remember the case when, according to the results of a poll by the radio station "Silver Rain", Mikhail Mikhailovich took first place as "a man from whom women want children"?
- Sure! I remember this absolutely enthusiastic call on the verge of hysteria: “Natasha! I became the first! Everyone wants children from me! I walk!" - “Misha, what happened? Where are you going?!" - "I dont know!".
And these large outbreaks of euphoria continued for several more days - Misha refused to return home: “I don’t know what to do with this! Well, why should I sit at home when everyone wants children from me? " In general, it was a very difficult period. (Laughs.)
- How did you manage, with the degree of fame of Mikhail Mikhailovich and female love for him to keep your family inviolable - not to get into some yellow stories, programs like “Let them talk”?
- To be honest, I watch these programs with horror. And I don't understand how they are done: either people are paid for participation and they work for hire, or they are lured there by fraudulent means and the doors are closed. There is no other way to explain where these forty-year-old children of famous parents come from, who after so many years want ... And what do they want, by the way? I don't understand that either.
Misha has two adult daughters who appeared before our relationship. One is almost my age, the second is younger - and they are both beautiful, beautiful, intelligent women.
They communicate with Misha, and with me, and with our son - and no one has any claims to each other. I can't imagine them suddenly appearing on the screen shouting: "Dad, I'm your daughter!"
I don't know, maybe it's true that smart children are born from some, but not from others? (Smiles.)
In general, journalism on television has become terrible - sheer filth: who killed whom, poisoned, raped. In the morning, when we have breakfast, I turn on the TV in the background - and with horror I jump from one channel to another. You can't eat for it!
- Does Mikhail Mikhailovich also see all this?
- Of course he watches TV all the time. Often - news, for example, on RBC, or sports. Misha starts from the middle of any football match - it doesn't matter who plays with whom - it seems to me that this distracts him a little from reality.
Surely he also comes across these scandalous programs that we talked about - and he watches them, because he, as a writer, is curious about what is happening outside our circle of friends and interests.
I would like him to have less exposure to this side of life ... Therefore, I often communicate with saleswomen, parking attendants, the police ... And if Misha suddenly encounters them, they, you know, somehow immediately transform: apparently, they salute him and do not behave as usual. (Smiles.)
- Is there something in Mikhail Mikhailovich that surprises you after 28 years?
- I still cannot understand where his frantic energy, his love for life and endless surprise at it comes from ... Before it seemed to me that we grew up at the same time. And now I understand: there is more childhood in him today than in me.
What joy he still experiences from buying a washing machine! How interesting he is to deal with a new phone: all the buttons must be pressed, all the functions must be mastered. He has an absolutely childish thirst for knowledge, a great curiosity.
Misha never loses his taste for food, clothes, or travel: he always needs a new shirt, a new country, a new perfume. It spurs me on too! I think: I also need to choose a perfume, but the fact that I have the same perfume all the time. (Laughs.)
I am also surprised by his incredible willpower. I believe that all people who have achieved something have it. They remember everything, they always call back, they keep their promises, they force themselves - sick / not sick, it doesn't matter! - and come to birthday parties to their best friends, to concerts, to TV shooting. And instantly "turn on" and give themselves! Wild will power! And also incredible charm and patience for people.
At many meetings where we go, a huge number of people come up to Misha and his acquaintances - the same Pozner, for example. "You remember me? We met 10 years ago! " A dialogue ensues, and when the person leaves, I ask: "Who is this?" In response: "I don't know ...". But how sincerely he spoke to this man! I myself believed that this was a chance meeting of people dear to each other.
- In the text “Talent and Woman” Mikhail Mikhailovich writes: “It is very simple to define talent: you see what kind of woman is next to him. Near Pushkin, near Yesenin, near Vysotsky. Then you remember which woman was near Brezhnev, near Khrushchev, near Stalin. They did not have them. They had everything, but they did not have these people. So I say: you yourself are what a woman is next to you [...] ”. Are you and Mikhail Mikhailovich alike?
- I think we have become very similar - I often catch myself thinking. And in some kind of situational reactions, and in internal attitudes, of course. If you look in the same direction with a person, as in a classic quote, if your deepest values coincide, it is very difficult to separate you, to quarrel over trifles. Well, the shirt was not so ironed, well, I came back late - God, what little things they are ...
- If you returned to those 24 years old, in that “mad spaniel”, what would you say to yourself?
- "Go ahead, Natasha, and don't be afraid, everything will be fine ..."
And I would also say to myself that you cannot impose your own laws on an adult, but at the same time you need to define your boundaries. To speak clearly, openly, without hysteria - where, how and from what it hurts you. You cannot agree to everything and wait for someone to appreciate it: do only what you want and can. Otherwise, you will not stand it - and you will simply fall out of the race. Or you will arrange an indicative hysterics with shouts: "I did so much for you, I gave you my life!" Who asked you about this? ..
But I came to these conclusions only at 52 years old, and at 24 I simply could not understand these words. So, it was necessary to go through all this ...
- Why do you think he stayed with you forever?
- Probably because I was not afraid of anything at all without the advice of the current version of myself. And men feel it keenly! When, on the one hand, a woman is madly in love and suffers, and on the other hand, she remains free and does not try to wrap herself in a vine, an explosive mixture is obtained. (Laughs.)
